Talk:Tim Drake

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LEGO Batman 2 appearance[edit source]

Okay, so it seems that Brickipedia has decided that the Dick Grayson that appears in LEGO Batman 2 as Robin's alter-ego is actually Tim Drake - I'm led to believe this isn't the case. First off, sure, LEGO.com initially identified the Robin in the game as Tim Drake - however, that was changed to "Dick Grayson" when the game's release date approached. In LEGO Batman 3: Beyond Gotham, the 1966 level's cutscene shows a picture of Dick Grayson, identical to the LEGO Batman 2 character. In the portable versions, Tim Drake looks very different from the "Dick Grayson" in the game. While the original, physical Super Heroes variant of Robin (Tim Drake) is identified as Tim Drake, the game's continuity is trying very hard to make it clear that the "Dick Grayson" in LEGO Batman 2 is not Tim Drake. As much as I want to move all this, I want to hear some other points of view before I do anything. Perhaps I'm missing some information. I'm moving this anyway. LCF (talk!) 17:25, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

What sources called him Tim Drake, for context? 75.158.151.50 17:41, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
An older version of the LEGO Batman 2 page on LEGO.com. LCF (talk!) 17:50, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
If that's pretty much the only source, then I guess I have to agree. LEGO.com is, sadly, lower on the reliability scale than the game itself. 75.158.151.50 18:09, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
You're right about the LEGO.com description being a part of it, but the reason was mostly to keep LEGO Batman and LEGO Batman 2 in-continuity with each other. I'll admit that the case wasn't that strong since we had the discussion closer to LB2's release, but LB3 again named Robin as Tim Drake, and 1) that game is definitely in continuity with LB2 2) Robin is assuredly the same character as LB2. Charlie Schlatter voices Robin in both games, whilst Nightwing is voiced by Cam Clarke in LB2 and Josh Keaton in LB3. I don't know what we'd want to do about it, but I think it's pretty certain that LB2 did make a mistake, and if the policy concerning minifigure naming conventions says that if "the name clearly contradicts the name of the character it is meant to represent", you use the designation of the character it is actually meant to be, then that ought to be here with some sort of annotation on both pages. Berrybrick (talk) 21:20, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
I see what you mean. I see where you're coming from, but 1) the LEGO Batman games exist in their own version of the pre-52 as well as post-52 continuities (another issue altogether), and 2) Nightwing may be a playable character in the game, but he has no role in the story. It's just like in LEGO Marvel Super Heroes where the Superior Spider-Man, a character that took over the mantle after Peter Parker died, is also playable. However, the Spider-Man in that game is Peter Parker. I'd say that whatever is part of the story (and the story only) should be taken into consideration; the games and related media have made it clear that the Robin in LB2 (and I'm only talking about LB2 here) is Dick Grayson. LCF (talk!) 22:34, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
I remember Arthur Parsons saying that Robin in all three games is meant to be Tim Drake, they just made a mistake. He said it around the time LB3 came out a tweet or question at a convention I think.BrickheroSPACESHIP (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
I agree that we should be looking mostly at story material. My argument has very little to do with what is pre/post-52 or the sets or "who wore what". They weren't trying to make it abundantly clear that LB2's Robin was Dick Grayson, they just reused the civilian figure from LB2 (which, by the way, was also used in the movie version of LB2 as just some generic civilian) in the 66 level. Dick and Tim are pretty much identical even in the comics; it's not inexplicable. LEGO pieces get reused all the time; I don't think LEGO is trying to make it clear that Loki and Bruce Wayne are twins, and I'd hold TT to the same principle. When you want to include a Robin figure for playing, his identity is something which exists on the periphery because Dick and Tim are pretty much the same functionally and visually; that's why they make mistakes on their website so much and, also, in LB2. In agreement with your terms:
1) [I at least believe that] I am using information from the video games, not the comics
2) More or less right; I'd suggest that if something makes sense, it fits. If it it something which seems like it would be from another universe or the future, it is from one of those. By this, maybe Future Foundation Spidey doesn't exist (or hasn't existed) in LMSH, but Squirrel Girl does because she doesn't cause any complications to arise.
So while your second point is technically correct, Dick Grayson as Robin in LB2 causes complications to arise. If I may demonstrate:
1) Nightwing is Dick Grayson. We know this because of the background provided in open world missions (it is explicitly clear he was a circus performer and had his parents killed in front of him) and on LB's Batcomputer.
2) Nightwing exists at the same time as LB3's Robin, as shown in the LB3 mid-credits scene when he enters through the Slideways Teleporter with Black Canary, Aquaman, and others
3) The Slideways Teleporter was only seen transporting people between locations, never from the past or future, through the rest of the game
4) Robin is Dick Grayson in LB2
5) Robin is Tim Drake in LB3
6) LB2's Robin is the same as LB3's Robin; they have the same voice actor and characterization; one distinct from Nightwing.
7) By 4 and 6, there are two Dick Graysons: Robin and Nightwing.
8) By 5 and 7, Dick Grayson is Tim Drake.
So something is wrong either with Robin's identity in LB2 or LB3. What we have to work with is the Batcomputer in LB, Tim Drake replacing the "Dick Grayson" figure on the portable version of LB2, and Nightwing's distinct characterization from Robin in LB3. Each option would tell us that Robin is Tim Drake in all three games, so what I think we ought to do is, under our naming conventions, refer to it as such with healthy annotations explaining that a mistake was made. Perhaps, based on the 66 cutscene though, it would make sense to have the "Dick" minifigure on both pages, though it's certainly hard to choose a course of action. If there is a trick here, please let me know, because it's fooled me too. Berrybrick (talk) 19:43, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
I understand. The existence of Nightwing alongside Robin would mean that Robin can't be Dick in LB3. Robin and Tim Drake are voiced by the same voice actor in LB3, which would further his identity as Tim Drake in the game. This doesn't say anything about LB2, though. There are a lot of characters that exist as playable characters in LMSH and LB3 that are not part of the storyline; they're just there to be played as. So no, I am not trying to say that characters that cause no complications exist, I'm saying that characters that don't appear in the main story don't exist in the storyline, as far as we are aware. I like your ideas on what we should do to outline what is more-than-likely a mistake, but the one piece of solid evidence from Arthur Parsons is nowhere to be found. I suppose I could try eliciting a response from him so that this discussion can be buried. LCF (talk!) 20:39, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
The storyline exists in a larger story world. The game provides more information about that world than what exists purely within the bounds of the storyline. While, yes, there are plenty of characters in the games that we couldn't say much about, Nightwing is not one of those characters. The game is telling us that this is who he is and how he fits into the larger world, which is consistent with itself, LB1, and some of your previous citations (unless you changed your mind about the 66 thing, which is fine). Because of this, I see no reason not to accept what it tells us unless we have a reason not to, like we do with Dick Grayson as Robin in LB2. That said, yes, this all does say something about LB2:
  • LB3 is a sequel to LB2; LB3 Lex Luthor makes clear allusions to his plot from the last game.
  • Robin is the same character between LB2 and LB3.
  • Nightwing, Dick Grayson, exists at the same time as Robin in LB3; I am not even looking at Tim Drake being playable in LB3 (because if that were my I only evidence I could conceivably say that is a mistake). Robin is presented the same way in both LB2 and LB3, whereas Grayson is a totally different character. Nightwing is clearly defined (and disturbed) by his origin in a way that Robin never is. Plus, looking at some videos, they are even more blatant about his identity than I remember. (I tried to link to some videos here, but it triggered the spam filter)
  • Therefore, Robin is not Dick Grayson in LB2.
At the risk of sounding self-sure (sorry <_> ) I think my case is strong and that we would need to have some larger discussion about what should not be considered canon for your argument to move forward. Though maybe not. If you think I'm wrong about that, just say so. :P Oh, and feel free to ask Mr. Parsons about it. I mean, we probably should if we can, but if he does say it is Dick in LB2, I probably still won't be inclined to accept it. Which, if he said Tim, I wouldn't expect you to either, because that's information from outside the game's storyline. :P Berrybrick (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear that Dick Grayson is Nightwing in LB3... I don't know why you keep bringing up his identity in regards to the Nightwing mantle when his identity as Robin is what is being discussed here. Are you trying to emphasise that Nightwing makes excessive references to his past, while Robin in LB2 does nothing of the sort? Nightwing only mentions the deaths of the Flying Graysons in relation to Harley Quinn's psychological advice. Robin in LB2 has an acrobat suit, which one could only imagine that it has to do with Dick Grayson and not Tim Drake. Anyway, According to everything I've said, LB2 is the sequel to LB3. Perhaps you've realised that I'm making underlying implications that LBTVG takes place sometime after LB2. It's not something I want to just say outright, but as far as I'm aware there isn't really any objective evidence that would indicate that LBTVG didn't happen after LB2 (besides the game's title, of course). Also, here's something I should have said much earlier in this discussion: In LB2, when Nightwing uses a Robin suit signal, he simply turns into Robin rather than having unique suits as in LBTVG. But in regards to Mr. Parsons confirming/disproving that Dick Grayson is Robin - if he did confirm that Tim Drake is Robin in LB2, you're somewhat right, I'd have a hard time believing it. But given that he's worked on all 3 games (as the lead designer and game director), I'd have no choice but to take his statement for encyclopaedic fact. LCF (talk!) 20:56, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm really sorry if I'm not explaining this well. I am trying to do this on your terms. What I want to get across is that Robin is the same character in between the two games. That character cannot be Dick Grayson. (For anyone reading this after the fact, I linked the videos to Ed over chat. Sorry that I can't do it here.)
@Nightwing mantle: A few reasons. One is because Dick isn't Robin and Nightwing at the same time, but the larger one is because when you said "the LEGO Batman games exist in their own version of the pre-52 as well as post-52 continuities (another issue altogether)" I took it with the implication that we shouldn't actually assume Nightwing is Dick Grayson, or that he exists at all, so I was trying to prove that he does. That's the same reason I felt the need to ensure you understood LB3 as taking place after LB2.
@Harley segment: Not true. The Batcave segment can be played before the Harley one, and even then he says "I need to get over this whole 'fear of circuses thing'... Maybe I should talk to someone?" before meeting her. What I was hoping you would get from them is this:
  • The LB3 Robin is not Batman's first Robin
  • The reason that I keep pointing out LB3 is a sequel to LB2 is because Robin is the same character. Both have the same voice actor and are written the same way: idiotically optimistic and relationship oriented. This creates an issue if you think they are intended to be different people. If they wanted them to be, you'd think they would make sure to differentiate them, otherwise what's the point? They even keep the same costume, which would have been the easiest way to do it.
  • The reason why I'd expect that they would differentiate them is because when they introduce Nightwing in LB3, they choose to emphasize different traits, giving him a separate definition (past oriented and troubled) to further distinguish Dick from Tim.
  • If we say that LB2 Robin = LB3 Robin, then that would mean Dick Grayson is Tim Drake, as those are the identities assigned in the respective games. But we know that isn't right. If LB2 didn't make a mistake in calling Dick Robin, then LB3 would have made a mistake in calling Tim Robin.
  • However, whereas in LB2 the only indication of Robin's identity was the name assigned to his alter ego (he was never named in story, so is he actually contradicting anything "in-story"?), LB3 gives plenty more clews:
  • Game's dialogue actually calls Robin "Tim Drake" at the end of the second level; this never happens in LB2, but there is the detail that Tim is Robin on portable versions which, hey, resolves the consistency issue.
  • Dick is the first Robin and later becomes Nightwing, who is around during the events of LB3
  • As far as I am aware, none of the story characters (who I could compile a list of if you'd like to check) appear at all in the hub worlds. If Nightwing were merely a "Robin variant" this would be an anomaly.
  • Plus, you know, different voice actors.
  • How immune from making mistakes is TT really? Why does Robin not have a cape that matches his set appearance in LB2? That shouldn't have been so easy to miss.
  • That they had separate Dick Grayson and Tim Drake figures in LB2 may not mean as much as it seems; they designed Nora Fries of all people. Who knows who else may have been designed and then cut from the game? Is it totally inconceivable that people got Dick and Tim (who are functionally the same in a lot of ways) confused and cut the wrong one?
@Acrobat suit: And Robin has acrobat abilities in LB3 without a special suit at all. Dick might be regarded as the better acrobat, but that doesn't mean Tim isn't good.
@LBTV: Which is exactly why I haven't made any reference to where it fits in, only the things it says about the larger universe.
@LB2 Nightwing DLC: I know. Damian Wayne does the same thing, but I don't think he is secretly Dick Grayson. The game just treats them as Robin variants, which isn't wrong, since Nightwing was Robin. Berrybrick (talk) 23:10, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
I think you know this, but I already know that Robin is Tim Drake in LB3. No, it doesn't seem that Tim Drake being Robin in LB2 contradicts anything in-story. Dick Grayson in the portrait is about as close to Dick Grayson being Robin in LB2 gets, story-wise. Thankfully (for a lot of things), I've run out of arguments. You're right about Damian Wayne in LB2, so that argument has been invalidated. Robin also has natural acrobatic abilities in the portable versions of LB2 (no acrobat suit is required). You bring up an interesting point in that TT might have cut Tim Drake rather than Dick Grayson. I never thought of that. Hopefully I can get a reply from Mr. Parsons soon. LCF (talk!) 00:05, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
I know you know that. Because he is Tim Drake in LB3, he is Tim Drake in LB2. That's basically what I have been saying. Sorry if the argument has been hard to follow. Berrybrick (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but it recently came to my attention that Robin (Tim Drake) in LEGO Dimensions looks identical to Robin (Dick Grayson) in 76035 Jokerland.[1] Doubtful that there's anything to discuss here, but it's something that might be relevant to the discussion. LCF (talk!) 21:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for sharing, but I don't think that it is relevant. There isn't anything that says only one version of the character can wear that costume. Good to know that it's Tim though; I was wondering what would happen with the TTG and TLBM worlds (though apparently the TLBM Robin will turn into Nightwing in the DC world). Berrybrick (talk) 21:59, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
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